I'm getting the impression that most of the traditional tunes fiddlers play, whether OT, BG, Irish, or whatever, seem to have keys (or sometimes modes, I guess) that they are usually played in. Is that true? Or are there variations? And how do those traditions arise, do you think--do tunes really tend to sound better in one key or another, or is it more a matter of how easy they are to play, or maybe just historical accident?
It's kind of relevant for me because, while I can pick up a tune by ear fairly well, remembering it in a particular key (which for me sort of translates into "on a particular location on my strings") is tougher. But if it's something I need to do, I'll work on it.
And my apologies if this has been discussed before and I missed it, or if it's just a totally idiotic question.
Yes, it seems to be fair to say that most tunes have a standard key that they are usually played in, although sometimes there are several different keys that are used by different people (or the same people) for the same tune.
To a large extent, the reason is to do with how the tunes fit on the instruments they are played on. An instrument like the fiddle is pretty versatile and can play in any key, but there's a big difference between playing in keys such as D or G and playing in keys like Eb or B. Other instruments, such as the traditional flute, pipes and tin whistle that are common in Irish music, are more limited and would struggle quite a lot once you get away from their comfortable set of home keys. It's partly to do with range (e.g. since D is the lowest note on a tin whistle in D you're relatively limited for playing tunes in C as you can't get to the bottom of the lower octave) and partly to do with what notes are available within that range (on a tin whistle in D, you can get all the notes of the D scale with no trouble, C natural is pretty straightforward (making G an easy enough key to play), F natural is a bit harder and once you get beyond that it becomes quite a bit more difficult, so music in keys other than D and G is usually harder (though not impossible) to play on a whistle, unless you use one tuned to a different key). Because the whistle, flute and pipes are important instruments in Irish music the keys of D and G, which fit well on those instruments, are dominant in that tradition. In Scottish music the fiddle has less competition as the dominant instrument, so tunes in A (which often fit especially well on the fiddle due to the open A and E strings providing the root & fifth notes of the scale) are a lot more common in Scotland.
Another factor in keeping tunes played in the same key is that folk music is very much an aural tradition rather than a written one and many (probably most) people tend to remember tunes very largely based on the fingering patterns involved, which change if you play the tune in a different key. Thus each individual musician is likely to play the same tune in the same key each time, and musicians who play together will (hopefully) play the tune in the same key. Since tunes are traditionally learned directly from other musicians, it's natural to learn a tune in the key that it is played in by the person you learn it from. Of course, keys occasionally get changed - perhaps in order to facilitate a different vocal range (if it's a song) or to fit better on a different instrument (for example, I always play Speed the Plough in A on the fiddle or in G on the tin whistle), or because somebody can remember a tune but not what key it's supposed to be played in.
In general I'd say that it's well worth trying to learn tunes in the keys in which they are normally played if you want to play with other musicians (and, like so many other things in life, music is a pleasure that's best shared). However, a good test of whether you've really got a tune in your head/heart/soul is whether you can play it in a different key from the one you usually play it in, since that relies on actually having a reasonable grasp of the melody rather than just falling into standard fingering patterns and, as such, provides a firmer basis for variations on the basic tune (or for ensuring that you don't inadvertently go off into a different tune that just happens to share a few patterns with the one you're trying to play).
I'd say (this might be more of a guess) that the reason Soldier's Joy is always played in D is that there's a convention that OT musicians agree on. It cuts out the debate. That said, I should point out that over 100 yrs ago I think it was more common to play Soldier's Joy in F. But now take Turkey In The Straw (Please!). I can play that tune in 2 or 3 keys, and I've gotten some weird looks because I wasn't playing in the key other people were used to playing it in. So what Is the right key for Turkey?
"I can, and do, cut my own hair." -Dwight Shrute
"I convinced my boss of my acumen in sales, and he rewarded me with these two plaques of recognition in lieu of a pay increase." -Dwight Shrute
I try to learn a tune in the key that the tune is normally played. This makes it easier for me to play with strangers. For my own amusement, or to maintain my proficiency when playing in a specific key, I will learn a tune in a key that it is not normally played. For example, I play "Fishers Hornpipe in "D". But I also play the tune in the key of "F". This helps keep my playing in that key "up to snuff", and the tune sounds good. I have read that this tune was originally played in the key of "F". I gave it a try and like it.
A lot depends on what style of fiddling your interested in as well.
Many of the Southern US OT fiddle tunes are not only played in an associated "key" but also with an "associated" fiddle tuning.
Tunes played in the key of G - like Leather Britches or Wild Horses - usually get played in what's now the "standard" violin tuning (GDAE low string to high).
But many tunes played in the key of A - like Sally Goodin or Brown's Dream - are played with the fiddle tuned to AEAE (low string to high).
And tunes played in the key of D - like Soldier's Joy or Sally Ann - are often played with the the fiddle tuned (ADAE low string to high).
In fact many of the tunes were "invented" while playing on a fiddle tuned one way or another and so they don't really sound "right" to the ear of a Southern OT fiddler unless they're played in the "right" key with the fiddle tuned the "right" way.
But the world's ever changing. I think a hundred years ago if you heard Sally Goodin fiddled the fiddle would almost always be tuned to AEAE. But these days it's played all the time - still in A - but with the fiddle tuned to GDAE and it's rare to hear it played with the fiddle tuned to AEAE. I'm told that Pete McMahan - a well-known Missouri fiddler played it in G.
And, of course, there are the exceptions. Turkey in the Straw seems to be played about half the time in the key G and the other half in the key of D. Flopped Eared Mule often gets played with the first part in G and the second part in D - or with the first part in D and the second part in A. Fishers Hornpipe is played in the key of D in most places but is usually played in the key of F in Missouri.
Cumberland Gap is usually played in G - except in the mountains of North Carolina where it's usually played in the key of D.
It also depends on your backup instrument(s). A clawhammer banjo player can play any tune in either the key of A or the key of G because that just amounts to handling the capo. Same for the keys of D and C. But you can't ask most Clawhammer banjo player to play a tune in D, if it's usually played in A because the banjo tuning and fingering are both different between the keys of A and D.
On the other hand most backup guitar players are less bothered by a request to play a tune in some key other than the "usual" key since they mostly are playing chords and can usually find the right chords in any key - some of'em need a capo for this, some of'em don't.
Outside the Southern US OT "hard core", the use of different fiddle tunings has pretty much died out. Bluegrass fiddlers don't do it much, nor do Texas and Missouri fiddlers - again the exceptions being a few cannonical tunes like "Bonapare's Retreat", "Midnight on the Water", or "Say Old Man".
So, I'd say the great majority of American fiddle tunes have an associated key and it's usually considered to be a bit "rude" to play one of'em in a different key. The exception to this rule is that when playing in a string band with a singer, it's ok to use a different key that better fits the singer's range - assuming you can figure out how to render the tune in the new key.
The Skillet Lickers did this a lot to suit Riley Puckett's singing range - and with a really good result.
--OTJ "I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
some times people change keys because they can't sing (it) in the key most people play it in. blue ridge cabin home, better be ready for g, d,c or a . even had a fellow ask for b but the banjo player fainted.
When I can play faded love like Bobby Hicks I will quit learning.
Thanks, all, for the insights. Good point about learning the tunes in their traditional keys for the sake of "playing well with others." Since my old beer-and-singing group broke up I've been a solitary fiddler, because I seem to have less and less spare time and because of my (entirely justified) embarrassment about my playing. But music is meant to be shared, and I've had some of the best times of my life making music in groups, so I do cling to the hope of doing that again some day.
And another belated thanks, Terri, for the tunelist. As a matter of fact, I printed that out from the other thread, and looking it over was part of what got me thinking about this question.
If the fiddle is tuned GDAE, it should be played in G. But it can be played cross tuned... so that could be either GDGD, or AEAE. On clawhammer banjo, it seems to fall best in a C tuning probably capoed up to D.
So I guess it depends on who you ask. I play it in G. The verses also sing well, there. It was originally a song, after all.
quote:Originally posted by bsed
I'd say (this might be more of a guess) that the reason Soldier's Joy is always played in D is that there's a convention that OT musicians agree on. It cuts out the debate. That said, I should point out that over 100 yrs ago I think it was more common to play Soldier's Joy in F. But now take Turkey In The Straw (Please!). I can play that tune in 2 or 3 keys, and I've gotten some weird looks because I wasn't playing in the key other people were used to playing it in. So what Is the right key for Turkey?
Generally I think tune keys are determined by something like: "What's the highest you can pitch a tune, and still be in first position? Playing in a group, the fiddle needs to be high enough to soar above the other instruments.
My observation is that traditional keys generally apply to instrumental tunes (ie tunes that do not normally have vocals). This is especially true of OT and Bluegrass tunes. For example, the bluegrass standard Gold Rush is always played in A. I have absolutely no idea why, I guess I chalk it up to tradition.
One of the reasons why I like bluegrass is because this type of music has a very heavy reliance on vocals and intricate vocal harmonies. And vocal songs are always played in the key that allows the lead vocalist to be comfortable, and to a lesser extent, allows the harmony vocalists to 'find a slot'.
Consequently, a lot of bluegrass tunes are done in keys like Bb, B, E and F, along with the more 'traditional' keys of G, D and A.
A really good exercise that I like to do is to play tunes outside of their standard key to give myself a workout in the less common keys. So I suggest that you not hesitate to take a tune that you are very comfortable with, and try working out an arrangement in different keys.
Hope this helps.
Long Bow Louie
Alcuni giorni lei e il cane Alcuni giorni lei e l'idrante.......
Turkey in the Straw? If the fiddle is tuned GDAE, it should be played in G. But it can be played cross tuned... so that could be either GDGD, or AEAE. On clawhammer banjo, it seems to fall best in a C tuning probably capoed up to D.
My experience has been that Turkey in the Straw is played in either G or D.
I like it better in G too. But I think Henry Reed played it in D - maybe because he also played it on banjo - or played it with other CH banjo players.
When Alan Jabbour and Ken Perlman came out to the Sittin' Bull Pub in Maynard, to introduce their "Southern Summits" CD, their "concert" was preceeded by an OT jam led by Alan.
Everybody played Turky in the Straw in D, got out of first position to reach the high D on the E-string when it was called for in the B-part, and seemed to have great fun doing it...
--OTJ "I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
quote:Lou wrote: For example, the bluegrass standard Gold Rush is always played in A. I have absolutely no idea why, I guess I chalk it up to tradition.
Well some of these instrumental tunes depend on certain sounds that can only be had in certain keys on the fiddle. Gold Rush, Sally Goodin', and Uncle Pen really want to be played in A because a lot of their notes are played on the A string while the 4th finger holds down the A on the D string. And all three tunes like to "prime" the E string as well.
And, of course, a performance of Uncle Pen is typically capped off by playing Jenny Lynn - an OT fiddle tune that's properly played in AEAE though in Bluegrass it's played with the fiddle in standard tuning. But however the fiddle's tuned, Jenny Lynn wants to prime both the A and the E - and that's only possible when it's played in A.
Then you have tunes like Roanoke where the entire second part is just a double shuffle through the cycle of fifths starting on an E chord - E, A, D, G. You only get these chords in the B-part if you play the tune in C.
OBS is another one that's in this category.
I've heard Sally Goodin' played in G and it's recognizably Sally Goodin'. But it's not the same "tune" as the real Sally Goodin' - that also really ought to be played in AEAE. When played in G it probably ought to have a different name.
It seems that a lot of "instrumentals" on both fiddle and banjo depend on some nuance of the instrument that can only be had in certain keys.
A really good example here is "Back Up and Push" vs. "Rubber Dolly". "Back Up and Push" is typically played in C but it's a bit less technically demanding to play it in A. But when you play it in A, it sounds different enough that fiddlers have given it a different name - "Rubber Dolly".
In contrast, there are a lot of "hornpipe tunes" that are just comprised of notes and don't use a lot of unique instrumental sounds - like Fisher's Hornpipe. So, Fisher's Hornpipe is still Fisher's Hornpipe whether it's played in D or F or even Bb....
--OTJ "I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
So I guess I have to go back here to some of the tunes that I "know" and make sure I know them in the right key. I'm embarrassed to admit, I've tended to just pick up the fiddle and play them wherever I feel like it. Of course, the advantage to that is I can play "Old Joe Clark" or "Barlow Knife" in just about any key you wish ...
I guess it's not that different from learning a foreign language, in a way. When you learn a noun or a verb in Latin, you have to learn not just the word but the declension or conjugation it belongs to. Is that how the more experienced fiddlers here learn a new tune, just, say, "'Shoggoth's Hoedown' in G," and as you learn it, do your fingers kind of "learn" the starting point, so you don't have to think consciously about the key later on when you start to play?
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... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft
As to why "The Gold Rush" is in the key of A has more to do, I think, with the original recording of the tune, which was written by Bill Monroe. It was recorded in August of 1967 using one of Monroe's younger bands, in this case Roland White on guitar, Vic Jordan on banjo, James Monroe on string bass, and most importantly-Byron Berline on fiddle. Monroe's version of "Sally Goodin" was recorded at the same time. As OTJ (above) points out, both of these tunes as well as "Uncle Pen" have a distinctive sound caused by playing the A drone on the D string (with the little finger) against the melody. "Uncle Pen" was first recorded in 1950 with Merle "Red" Taylor playing the fiddle, so that particular stylistic technique must certainly predate Berline's tenure with the Bluegrass Boys. How much of the melody of "The Gold Rush" is due to Monroe and how much to Berline is anyone's guess. To my ear, it does share some elements with Monroe's later "Road to Columbus."
rastewart- i get my butt kicked by this all the time. If i hear some fiddle tune without an instrument close by, i usually work it up in D or G. Then somebody will tell me it's an E or A or Bb tune and i have to transpose it under my fingers. I guess it keeps a fellow honest somehow. You have to play singing songs in all keys, so practicing the ability to change keys is healthy, i guess. To anybody reading this- this is one of the big ways of getting to know your weapon. Know your weapon. Know what you can or can't do, then git'er dun, with what you got. Yoda has left the building.
quote:Originally posted by rastewart Is that how the more experienced fiddlers here learn a new tune, just, say, "'Shoggoth's Hoedown' in G," and as you learn it, do your fingers kind of "learn" the starting point, so you don't have to think consciously about the key later on when you start to play?[/font=Book Antiqua]
That's a pretty good question you pose. I don't know if this has already been covered by someone, but I'll describe how I learn new tunes. And because of these methods I use, I don't usually have a problem playing tunes in unpopular keys (except Turkey In The Straw).
I learn a lot of tunes off of recordings. So the first thing I have to do is figure out what the first note is. And then if I can also figure out the last note too, I'll automatically know the key 99% of the time. (The exception is if it's in a minor key. I'll figure out how to play it, but I might not know I'm playing in D min.) Even if its a FAST tune, if I listen for the first and last notes, and then shut off the machine and sing the note I just heard---or even sing the whole tune---I'll know the key.
Jam sessions are easier because if there's a banjo present, you have to stay in one key ad nauseum (sorry, banjo players). But what if there isn't a banjo, & the gal leading off a tune doesn't tell you the key, much less the title? Then I just start chording along as best I can, and most of the time I can establish the key in the first minute or so. So now I can start filling in melody notes.
Hope this helps some people. It might not help me with a tune like Cumberland Gap, because I've seen versions in 2 or 3 keys. Whichever one is "correct" probably has a lot to do with what part of the country you find yourself in, as I think OTJ has stated.
"I can, and do, cut my own hair." -Dwight Shrute
"I convinced my boss of my acumen in sales, and he rewarded me with these two plaques of recognition in lieu of a pay increase." -Dwight Shrute
Cumberland Gap (I think this is the right thread) is also sometimes played in F, because thats a good tuning on the banjo. And that got me thinking that in addition to how a tune "sets" on the fiddle, the choice of key might also depend on the accompanying instrument. In the 19th century that might often have been a piano (and still is in some places) and so keys like F or Bb and C would be easy. When the guitar came in the sharp keys (which of course also favor the fiddle) might have been better. And as for the banjo, of course it can be tuned to about any key, if you want to wait long enough. But it does seem that certain areas favor C and G, while others play sometimes the same tunes in D and A, depending on whether the banjo players use capos or not (or tune up). Uncle Dave, its said, carried two banjos to bridge that gap, and of course he was a singer.
[quote]Originally posted by OTJunky But the world's ever changing. I think a hundred years ago if you heard Sally Goodin fiddled the fiddle would almost always be tuned to AEAE. But these days it's played all the time - still in A - but with the fiddle tuned to GDAE and it's rare to hear it played with the fiddle tuned to AEAE. I'm told that Pete McMahan - a well-known Missouri fiddler played it in G.[quote]
Where ever I first picked the tune "Sally Goodin" up in my travels , it was always in the key G ....plays much better in G , uses the full range of the fiddle ...I have no idea why key A gets preferred for this tune..I can play it in both keys but you can getter nicer variations out of the key G .... key A is kind of dumbed down for this tune ... Clyde Davenport always played it in key G too .... I never played it in key A until I had to play it with bluegrassers , they tend to change the keys around on alot of tunes.... bluegrass tends to follow the singer's voice ...or the banjo player's capo up the neck Me, I always re-tune before resorting to a capo
(sorry for the belated response...) You gotta remember that Henry Reed is also the one who passed on Quince Dillon's to us-
so it's sort of like "Quince Dillon's High Turkey"!
quote:Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Turkey in the Straw? If the fiddle is tuned GDAE, it should be played in G. But it can be played cross tuned... so that could be either GDGD, or AEAE. On clawhammer banjo, it seems to fall best in a C tuning probably capoed up to D.
My experience has been that Turkey in the Straw is played in either G or D.
I like it better in G too. But I think Henry Reed played it in D - maybe because he also played it on banjo - or played it with other CH banjo players.
When Alan Jabbour and Ken Perlman came out to the Sittin' Bull Pub in Maynard, to introduce their "Southern Summits" CD, their "concert" was preceeded by an OT jam led by Alan.
Everybody played Turky in the Straw in D, got out of first position to reach the high D on the E-string when it was called for in the B-part, and seemed to have great fun doing it...
--OTJ "I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
I think it's because you can get a nice pinky drone/unison going in Standard that you can't get while cross-tuned.
I've never tried it in G- I'll have to do so.
Banjo players are always asking for Cripple Creek in G, because it's in G tuning, and many around here haven't played with a fiddler enough to know it's normally in A on the fiddle. Well, I stopped squawking long enough once to try it in G, and it actually works- but it sounds like a completely different tune.
I'm convinced that one reason for key changes is to allow a different bow rhythm. I'm convinced that most Old Time fiddlers (in the old days) let the string changes dictate or at least suggest a preferred bowing pattern. Dropping the key from A to G, or from D to C <really> changes the way a tune is bowed. Depending on the preferred local shuffles, that could also influence the key choices.
quote:Originally posted by Feodosia
[quote]Originally posted by OTJunky But the world's ever changing. I think a hundred years ago if you heard Sally Goodin fiddled the fiddle would almost always be tuned to AEAE. But these days it's played all the time - still in A - but with the fiddle tuned to GDAE and it's rare to hear it played with the fiddle tuned to AEAE. I'm told that Pete McMahan - a well-known Missouri fiddler played it in G.[quote]
Where ever I first picked the tune "Sally Goodin" up in my travels , it was always in the key G ....plays much better in G , uses the full range of the fiddle ...I have no idea why key A gets preferred for this tune..I can play it in both keys but you can getter nicer variations out of the key G .... key A is kind of dumbed down for this tune ... Clyde Davenport always played it in key G too .... I never played it in key A until I had to play it with bluegrassers , they tend to change the keys around on alot of tunes.... bluegrass tends to follow the singer's voice ...or the banjo player's capo up the neck Me, I always re-tune before resorting to a capo
Also rast - always good to have the basics down - D,G,C,A, and E. Lots of tunes are in the easiest key - (start position -esiest way to play on strings where your fingers natually hits the string without moving it)
It's not that fiddlers are lazy (la!) It's just that a - those keys are good and easy accompany keys -(banjos, others) to play in - (without having to retune their instruments 0- these (above) are all generally accessible keys - )
B - The less you have to be an itsy bitsy spider crawling all over the finger board, the more music you can get out faster - (it is true!) (not a lot of time effort moving your wrist/hand position all over = concervation of energy!!! LOL!)
jen *see my homepage (blog) In Defense of music theory-whether you know it or not - you use it everytime you play!! -
Banjo players are always asking for Cripple Creek in G, because it's in G tuning, and many around here haven't played with a fiddler enough to know it's normally in A on the fiddle.
Wow, I do Cripple Creek in key- G too .... it must have been from hanging with 5-string banjo players who didn't feel like pulling out a capo
Where ever I first picked the tune "Sally Goodin" up in my travels , it was always in the key G ....plays much better in G , uses the full range of the fiddle ...I have no idea why key A gets preferred for this tune..I can play it in both keys but you can getter nicer variations out of the key G .... key A is kind of dumbed down for this tune ... Clyde Davenport always played it in key G too .... I never played it in key A until I had to play it with bluegrassers , they tend to change the keys around on alot of tunes.... bluegrass tends to follow the singer's voice ...or the banjo player's capo up the neck Me, I always re-tune before resorting to a capo.
Sally Goodin' can't really be played in G. Sally was the greatest whore on the frontier and the tune chronicles an encounter with her - beginning with the foreplay, progressing to the highs and lows of the hard work that follows, and leading to the eventual climax and release. The tune gets wilder as Sally and the fiddlers who consorted with her move West and become more practiced.
You can't really render all this properly on the fiddle without the option to grind on the primed root and scream on the primed fifth against an unwound open E-string.
Katie Hill has similar origins though I think Katie was a Mid-Western woman who offered a more subdued but equally rewarding experience - and had to be courted. So, Katie Hill should be played in G. And this cultural backdrop probably accounts for Pete MacMahan's rendering of Sally Goodin' in G as well - though I can't say why Clyde Davenport would play Sally Goodin' in G.
But since Texas and Oklahoma fiddlers were fiddling outside the Western border of the Bible belt, they could appropriate Katie's tune, change its name to Sally Johnson, incorporate a brief E-minor, and add more parts - to make it more like Sally Goodin'...
--OTJ "I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Rich, I used to ask this same question when I first started playing the fiddle in the weekly jams. I always got the same response, " Learn it in every key and you'll know it when we play it!" That was above me, so I started trying to remember what keys we played what songs in. I found that didn't work, because if the dobro player was there, we played more songs in G. An example is Maiden's Prayer. We always played that in A unless the dobro was there, and then it got played in G. Wildwood Flower went from C or D to G. Cripple Creek went from A to G.
I'm not far enough along to learn songs in cross tunings, so I've learned everything in GDAE. At a jam last week, I asked a fiddler in our group if he wanted to play Black Mtn. Rag. He said he didn't play it anymore because he didn't like to cross tune. I politely told him I had to learn it in GDAE because nobody around me played in cross tuning and went on to another tune. I'm sure tunes like BMR and SG sound different when played in cross tuning vs. std. tuning but they still sound enough like the tune that you can name it.
Well, OTJ's post notwithstanding- (where is a "rolling eyes" icon when I <really> need it?) Last night I was practicing, and decided to try Sally Goodin in G- and to my surprise it worked very well, except that the first part was a little tricky but Sawshuffle seemed to make it work. The high part fits perfectly on the E string in 1st position, although the drones aren't as nice and are more tricky. But as I played it, it occurred to me- Sally Goodin may actually be a variant of Leather Breeches/Lord McDonald's"!
quote:Originally posted by Feodosia
[quote]Originally posted by OTJunky But the world's ever changing. I think a hundred years ago if you heard Sally Goodin fiddled the fiddle would almost always be tuned to AEAE. But these days it's played all the time - still in A - but with the fiddle tuned to GDAE and it's rare to hear it played with the fiddle tuned to AEAE. I'm told that Pete McMahan - a well-known Missouri fiddler played it in G.[quote]
Where ever I first picked the tune "Sally Goodin" up in my travels , it was always in the key G ....plays much better in G , uses the full range of the fiddle ...I have no idea why key A gets preferred for this tune..I can play it in both keys but you can getter nicer variations out of the key G .... key A is kind of dumbed down for this tune ... Clyde Davenport always played it in key G too .... I never played it in key A until I had to play it with bluegrassers , they tend to change the keys around on alot of tunes.... bluegrass tends to follow the singer's voice ...or the banjo player's capo up the neck Me, I always re-tune before resorting to a capo
In the 1970s, I learned a 3-part version of Paddy Won't You Drink Some Good Old Cider in the key of D and it's fine in that key. About 6-7 years later, I decided to try it in the key of C and have prefered to play it that way, ever since. Now the tune is good in either key, however, the character of the tune is really different when playing in C as compared to D.
Carl
"Just around the corner is someone who plays better than you....." "There will always be someone who likes your music and someone who dislikes your music. Get over it......." [Dan Haerle, former music prof at University of North Texas]
OTJ: Your etymology for the tune "Sally Goodin" is interesting and one I'd never heard before. Where did you learn that?
Also, somewhere above you state that outside the Southern US, cross-tunings have pretty much died out. (IMO) It is not that they "died out" but rather that they never "caught on," because the expected repertoire of a fiddler was too varied to find much use for the changed tunings. Actually, of the old-timers, i.e. those born around 1900 that I interviewed in Idaho, Wyoming, and eastern Oregon in '74-75, I never found a one who was even familiar with the idea of cross-tunings.
We tend to think of cross-tunings as an archaic residue, but is there any evidence for the antiquity of such a concept, say before 1880? "Wm. Litton's Fiddle Tunes," from 1802 shows only GDAE tunings. Just curious.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
OTJ: Your etymology for the tune "Sally Goodin" is interesting and one I'd never heard before. Where did you learn that?
Hmmm... I was wondering when either you, DougD or FiddlePogo was going to call me on that one...
Most of what I wrote there is a fabrication. I don't have much - if any - etymology to support it other than interpreting the usual lyrics.
quote:Commonly sung first verse
Had a Piece of Pie, Had a Piece of Puddin' Gave it all away Just to see Sally Goodin'
A piece of something sweet and gooey - pie, puddin', jelly roll - was a common Southern euphemism even when I was growing up in the South. And while I wouldn't say that even a large minority of Southern OT fiddlers would agree with my characterization, I can say that I'm not alone in characterizing the tune the way I described it in the post.
Coincidentally, this post popped up on Fiddle-L on March 30 - three days after my characterization.
quote:From a Fiddle-L Post
Read somewhere the tune was originally called "Going up the Sandy". On the Sandy lived a civil war widow named Sally who took up prostition. The name was changed to honor her as "Sally was a good one".
I won't drag the author's name into this sordid afair.
Fiddle tunes commemorating this side of life are not unknown. "Sugar Hill" is another commonly used Southern euphemism and when Tommy Jarrell sings, "If I had ten dollars, I'd climb old Sugar Hill", I'm pretty sure he won't be looking for maple trees when the climb's done.
Eddon Hammons "Old Greasy Coat" is another tune name of questionable etymology - here's the entry from "Fiddler's Companion".
"Old Greasy Coat." Old Time, Breakdown. USA, West Virginia. A Dorian. Standard or AEae (Edden Hammons). ABCC. There are several meanings for the term ‘greasy coat.’ It is an old-time euphemism for a condom, but it has also been suggested the term refers to an unwashed fleece (i.e. still retaining the lanolin), and a Confederate soldiers coat, worn, greasy and dirty from overuse. A verse attached to the tune goes:
***
Well I don't drink and I don't smoke,
And I don't mess with the greasy coat... (‘wear no’ is sometimes substituted for ‘mess with the’)
I've no etymological evidence at all that supports putting "Katy Hill" and "Sally Johnson" into this category of tunes. I've just always been fascinated - musically - by how demurely "Katy Hill" was treated in Missouri, by the structure of the tune, by how the tune "morphed" into "Sally Johnson" in Oklahoma and Texas and by how - in early Texas contest fiddling - Sally Johnson developed into exactly the same kind of multi-part tour de force that Sally Goodin' had become.
It just always seemed to me that Katy and the two Sally's had something in common though I'm probably the only one who's noticed it.
BTW, I have entirely different opinions about "Old Mother Flanagan", "Old Molly Hare", "Sally Ann", and "Julianne Johnson", .
--OTJ "I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
